Leadership is the Easiest Word to Say and the Hardest Word to Live - with Dr. Chip Valutis - Part 2

Written By Todd Tuthill

Leadership is the Easiest Word to Say and the Hardest Word to Live - with Dr. Chip Valutis - Part 2

The Rincon Horizons podcast is where we talk about what it means to reach the summit on your leadership journey. We want to help you lead better so your organization can climb higher. Todd and Dylan welcome organizational psychologist and author Dr. Chip Valutis to the podcast.

Episode Summary

Dr. Chip Valutis is an expert in leadership and organizational development. Our conversation explores the S-curve concept, which illustrates the life cycle of organizations and the importance of adapting leadership styles as companies grow. Chip shares insights on the challenges leaders face during transitions, the significance of humility, curiosity, and courage in effective leadership, and the necessity of reinventing business models to avoid decline.

Takeaways

  • Leadership is about facilitating movement based on the organization's journey.

  • The S-curve represents the life cycle of organizations and individuals.

  • Transitioning from early growth to mature growth is challenging for leaders.

  • Jumping the S-curve involves reinventing business models to avoid decline.

  • Effective leaders exhibit humility, curiosity, and courage.

  • Leaders must adapt their styles as organizations evolve.

  • Understanding the dynamics of growth phases is crucial for success.

  • Personal experiences shape leadership perspectives and practices.

  • The importance of self-awareness in leadership cannot be overstated.

Links  mentioned in the podcast:

Books recommend in the podcast:

 

Moderator and co-host Dylan Mitchell

Dylan is the Brand Strategist, Creative Director, and Founder of DM.supply. He’s passionate about helping churches, nonprofits, and businesses of all kinds build brands that are clear, meaningful, and built to last.

Find Dylan on LinkedIn at: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dylnmtchll/




Primary contributor and co-host Todd Tuthill

Todd is the Managing Partner of Rincon Aerospace - A consulting company guiding aerospace companies to exceptional.

Todd is an aerospace executive and systems engineer with more than three decades of experience designing aircraft flight control systems

Find Todd on LinkedIn at: https://www.linkedin.com/in/toddtuthill/

Our Guest: Dr. Chip Valutis

Dr. Valutis is the founder and CEO of Valutis.com. He is a pioneering psychologist in executive coaching and organizational development. With over three decades of experience, his insights have transformed both Fortune 500 giants and smaller enterprises alike. He is the author of the book Talent-Driven Growth: Your Blueprint For Scaleable Organizational Success.

Find Dr. Valutis on Linkedin at: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chipvalutis/

AI GENERATED TRANSCRIPT: Rincon Horizons S1E6 - Leadership is the Easiest Word to Say and the Hardest Word to Live - with Dr. Chip Valutis - Part 2

Dylan Mitchell

Hey, everyone, I'm Dylan Mitchell, and this is the Rincon Horizons podcast. This show is about leadership, what it really takes to grow, to adapt and to reach the summit over the course of your leadership journey. Our goal is simple, to help you lead better so your organization can climb higher. Each episode, I'm joined by my co-host and our main contributor, Todd Tuthill, managing partner of Rincon Aerospace. Welcome back to the Rincon Horizons podcast. We're picking up right where we left off with Rincon Aerospace Managing Partner, Todd Tuthill, and Organizational Psychologist, Dr. Chip Valutis, founder of Valutis LLC.

Todd Tuthill

We've talked a lot about companies. Let's, if we could, get a little more specific about leaders. and something else you say in your book, you say, leaders have the potential for 3S curves in their own professional evolution. What are the curves? tell us what that's all about.

Chip Valutis

Love it. So, and again, S curves work in relationships, S curves work in life. And this is a perfect example of how S curves work in a career. If you're okay, given it's wild card weekend, I'm gonna give you a football metaphor.

Todd Tuthill

Outstanding you're in Buffalo the best football city in the world by the way. I'll just go on record of saying that I'm a Buffalo Bills fan to go Buffalo Go Buffalo. Yeah, just for the for the listeners because this may sound stupid if bad things happen this weekend But this is the Friday. This is the Friday before wild card weekend starts and the Bills play the Jags on on Sunday, so

Chip Valutis

A lot of anxiety this weekend. lot of anxiety. We'll see.

Yeah, so the three S curves in a career I encourage everybody to watch and manager. The first S curve I've titled, I think I titled it, maybe someone else did and I don't remember, but I titled it, your primary reason for being is to get results. You are the person on the field touching the ball, moving the ball and getting results. So if you think on the offensive side of the ball, you've got your O line, they're really they're supporting results But you get into your fullback and you're running back and your receivers their job is to get results. They're the go-to people the highest place you can get on that particular s-curve going from your offensive lineman and all the way up would be the quarterback. The quarterback has the biggest potential to get results on the playing field and He or she has actually learned I can carry the ball. Josh is very good at carrying the ball, but I can also use my resources I have with me, hand it, throw it, pass it, lateral it, to get results. But from perspective, at least on the offensive side of the ball, the quarterback is the highest leader and he is still paid to get results. At that phase, when you're kind of a player coach, I get to tell them in the huddle what to do. I get to hand Todd the ball. I get to throw Dylan the ball.

If I want to go higher, the next phase of the professional life span S curve is I now have to learn how to get results through others. I now have to score points without touching the ball. Now you tell a lot of leaders that score points without touching the ball. They're going be like, huh? How in the world do you score points without touching the ball? Well, it's called coaching.

We can have our assistant coach on special teams, no disrespect to special teams coaches, but I'm putting you at the lower end of it. I now have to learn how to coach. my S-curve, as I master that ability to score points without touching the ball, the highest I can get to in that S-curve is head coach, Sean McDermott, Completely different set of skills.

You go back, I'm aging myself, I will argue that Michael Jordan was the greatest basketball player of all time. I know all the LeBraun lovers, sorry, Michael was the man. Thank you. And what happened when Michael retired? When Michael left the court, he bought a team, I forget what team he was, someone on East Coast. He tried to coach it, he tried to manage it, and he sucked, He was horrible. He actually went back on the court to try to court.

Todd Tuthill

And I would agree with you. I would agree with you on that, absolutely.

Chip Valutis

Coach from the court where he's good at. Now his counterpart with the Bulls, Steve Kerr, was a solid player, but he is an amazing coach. He's still at Golden State, It's apples and oranges what makes a great athlete someone who can get results versus someone who can get results through others. Completely have to reinvent yourself. And people don't always like to do that, We could spend a whole episode on this, Todd, where the boss said, get out of the way, Todd, let me show you how to do that, He's not coaching.

He's trying to touch the ball again. But anyway, get back to your question. So I'm at the top of my second S curve, getting results through others, Sean McDermott. The third S curve introduces getting results through strategy. The general manager, I can't remember his name, Bill something or other, of the Bills, he doesn't even need to be in the stadium on Sunday. He's working on drafts, he's working on trades, he's working on salary cap.

His job is to look at the strategy of the NFL team called the Buffalo Bills and see how he can begin contributing. Again, far cry from being that fullback who gets beat up trying to get the three extra yards we need on third and short. So organizationally speaking to put a bow around this, we all join as individual contributors, at least early in our career. We all join and our job is to get results. And as we get results, we get tapped on the shoulder. Hey, Todd, you're good at that. Will you look at this? Will you look at that?

Eventually, will you lead this team? Will you get to be that player coach? And then, especially in Todd's world, the engineering world, you'll hit a fork where it says, do I wanna continue to be an individual contributor, be a chief engineer, principal engineer, et cetera, et cetera, or do I wanna get into management? Do I wanna leave this S curve and all the comfort that's provided me and now score points without touching the ball? And if I do that, can I master that? It's very difficult for a great engineer to become a great engineering manager, just to pick on engineers.

if I continue to grow in that and I evolved to an officer of the company, now I have to get results through strategy. Todd, your old boss was in all three of those S curves, why you were there and why I was there.

Todd Tuthill

Absolutely. And was good at all of them. Absolutely.

Chip Valutis

Yeah. Yeah.

Dylan Mitchell

Chip to go into that a little bit deeper stay on this point too long Do you think in your own opinion? Is there something to be said are there people that have this predisposition to? Be able to go to that higher level of leading versus people who are more comfortable where they're at ⁓ be you know lower level or, for lack of a better term, worker bee, this is not to say that people can't move up, but are there people that just have this predisposition and if so, how can the people who don't have that predisposition fight against it?

Chip Valutis

That's an interesting question. I'm going to, for the sake of being able to answer it, take your word predisposition and I'm going to turn that into the philosophical debate of nature versus nurture. Are leaders born or are leaders made? I happen to fall more on the leaders are made side. personally, doesn't mean I'm right. You stretch, but given the fact that philosophically I'm on the leaders are made, not born.

Then I shy away from words like predisposition because for me word is telegraphing more nature. It's in my DNA. I'm a natural born leader. So I would, from that perspective, say, I don't think so. I don't know of any predispositions. Now I will say this, to jump each phase of those S curves requires a very large degree of humility.

Because at least three points in my career, I'm starting over. I'm learning a completely new set of skills. And if I don't have the humility to look silly in front of the crowd, to make mistakes, to stub my toe, to lose, have a worse golf score than a better golf score, I'm likely to protect my own ego and identity, gonna stay put in what I consider to be my strength.

Dylan Mitchell

Yeah, okay.

Chip Valutis

So I do see things that can facilitate or retard growth and evolution as a leader, but it's not DNA or genetics in my opinion.

Dylan Mitchell

Okay, I think that's a really good segue into what I wanted to ask next. Across your career over three decades, you've worked with a lot of companies, but leaders individually even, ⁓ Todd being one, when you step back and just take like a 30,000 foot view of it all, what have you learned about what really makes a leader effective?

Chip Valutis

Yeah, I like that. And actually it's, my last answer is gonna help with this answer because the first of the elements that I look for and I listen for is humility. Are you the type of leader that can say, I'm wrong? Are you the type of leader that can say, I'm not sure? Are you the type of leader that can say, I'm scared, I'm nervous? Can you acknowledge and put words to some of the vulnerability? is a hard leadership, it's a hard job.

I mean, just a hard and often thankless job. But the first thing, the first attribute I look for, at least in the type of leader that I'd wanna work for, the level of humility. Because without the receptivity that I don't have all the answers, this individual is gonna be very cautious, hesitant, defensive when it comes to new data, new insights, new opportunities.

If I can see that humility, if I can have that, boy, I don't know, I don't understand, I'm not good at that, tell me more. Now I can trigger my second attribute that I look for and that's curiosity. We live, the world we live in, is so dynamic and tech alone, the level of change with AI and everything in our world. I don't know how you can survive without being curious.

Dylan Mitchell

I like that.

Chip Valutis

And so, but I'm not gonna be curious and really ask deep questions if I don't have the humility, I don't recognize that I don't know everything. And then all the curiosity in the world is not gonna do me any good unless I have the courage to try something. So humility, curiosity, and courage to me are the formulas for success as a leader, when I work for someone, got a call today, a possible new business, and I'll have my first meeting with that president.

And I will, by design, push back on that leader Say, Todd, you're wrong. That doesn't make any sense. And I'm doing it literally to see, does he say, that's interesting, tell me more, Chip, or does he say, what do you know? You're not a systems engineer.

Todd Tuthill

I remember the first time I met Chip and he absolutely did that to me. No question. He's exactly right.

Chip Valutis

Did I? But it's interesting you need, I again, leaders come in all sizes and shapes going back to football and basketball. I personally would not necessarily wanna work for Bill Belichick, but he has a lot of rings, His style, the Patriots way and do your job and a little more cold, a little more Darwinian, that has worked marvelously well for the New England Patriots. Phil Jackson, kind of the guru, the meditator, the yoga, he's got just as many rings and he's kind of the polar opposite I don't think there's one formula for success. You have to tie it to the context, the S-curve location, to a lot of different variables to see is that gonna work or not.

Dylan Mitchell

It's funny, the words that were about to come out of my mouth was just listening to you talk. It doesn't sound like there's a one size fits all approach to leadership.

Chip Valutis

I don't think so. again, you tie back in the S curve. There are some leaders that run very lean, mean, tight machines, They're process oriented, they're procedure, they're infrastructure. And then you have your very entrepreneurial leaders. Both of them can be remarkably successful in the right point in time. Todd, you can remember some of those early days when you were transitioning, you'd get a hire in Moog and he'd like, well, where's your job descriptions and where's your racy chart? People look at it like, that's not how we do things here, This is a different kind of company.

Todd Tuthill

I had to start screening for that before people got, I eventually learned to do that. Yeah.

Chip Valutis

Well, exactly. Yeah, that person isn't a bad leader. That person is joining a culture that doesn't yet have that as a major success factor in leadership.

Dylan Mitchell

That's great. Thank you so much, Chip, for that really all of your answers. But I really that very thoughtful and it's going to make me think, you know, humility, curiosity, encourage. One thing like to come back to on every episode, we have two kind of recurring segments. The first one we call the leadership corner. I think this is a really, again, great segue. funny how that works

Chip Valutis

Yeah, love them.

Dylan Mitchell

It's a chance to step back from the and talk about a moment that actually shaped how you lead. Maybe a challenge, a turning point, or just a lesson that stuck. When you think about your leadership journey, do you have a story that comes to your mind?

Chip Valutis

I think this will I wasn't the leader in the room, but I learned so much about leadership by being in the room. So Dylan, I may be cheating a little bit, I'm gonna, I'll tell this story. I was very new in my career. I had just gotten my shiny new PhD. I didn't have as much humility at the time because you think you actually know something. You haven't learned yet that PhD stands for piled higher and deeper. it's not really.

Dylan Mitchell

That's okay.

Chip Valutis

A badge of I was hired by a consulting firm staffed by psychologists in St. Louis. And we were doing a lot of work with Bloomingdale's. We were training a lot of their supervisors in Manhattan performance appraisals, like training after training after training. My boss calls me and he says, I need you in New York. I'm like, okay, what's going on? You're gonna sit with the CEO and president of Bloomingdale's, Michael Gould and Jeff Sherman.

And give them a one day private training on giving performance appraisals. I'm like, what? And it's like, yeah, investing all this time. They're putting all those people through this. And they said, if we're gonna put our people through this, we should do it too. I hope this is podcast appropriate. I had diarrhea for three weeks. I was nervous.

Flagship store, 59th Street Bloomingdale's. I don't remember what floor we were on, 9, 10, 14, 15. And I'm in Michael Gould CEO's office right over 59th Street and Jeff Sherman, and I'm training them. I am nauseous, I am nervous. Get to lunch. And Mr. Gould looks at me and he says, that was a really good morning. I can't tell you how nervous I've been for this day. And I'm like, what?

Michael Gould, CEO of Bloomingdale's, punk Chip Valutis doesn't know which end of the, mean, I'm green as can be. And I'm like, what in the world are you nervous about? And he said, I'm the CEO of Bloomingdale's. I don't know how to give performance reviews the way you're supposed to do them. I'm not good at giving performance reviews. And I'm sitting here, and he didn't quite say it in his words, but with some punk consultant.

And I'm gonna look like an idiot, but I needed to do it. And honestly, I'm just connecting those dots now. Dylan, that's humility, It's actually humility. My lesson I walked away with all leaders, no matter how big their title, how big their organization are people, they put their pants on one leg at a time, they're nervous, they're anxious, they're uncertain of what they're doing. They're not gods, they're not know-it-alls.

Dylan Mitchell

To say that's that humility piece.

Chip Valutis

It allowed me early in my career, this is my selfish answer, to bring more of my psychologist to my work, recognizing that these are just human beings doing their best in a role they've been given for the tasks that they've been given. And it helped humanize the world of work, it helped humanize leaders. And it was just, for me, really, really powerful to hear that from someone like that.

Dylan Mitchell

That's so good. Yeah, I think that definitely counts. I don't think that's

Chip Valutis

You

Todd Tuthill

I give him a pass, we'll take it.

Dylan Mitchell

I cheated on the first episode, you recall. If anyone's listened to the first episode, I cheated and gave gave gave a couple of things. So I yeah, I think if I got to cheat, you get to cheat.

Chip Valutis

There you go. That's

fair, I like that, that's That was funny.

Todd Tuthill

That's a great example. ⁓

Dylan Mitchell

That second segment that I mentioned that's kind of a recurring segment on the podcast. like to close each episode with a leadership book recommendation. guest brings a different perspective and it's always interesting to hear what's shaped how they So Todd, I'll throw it to you first. a book that's influenced you and why would you recommend it?

Todd Tuthill

Speaking of cheating, I'm going to cheat too. I'm going to talk about two books because I have got to talk about Chip's book, I don't have to, but I should because I, and full disclosure, I haven't read the entire book. I've read a lot of it in preparing for and it really is a, we talk about S curves and we were able to talk about 0.1 % of the book on the podcast today,

It's practical, there's meat to it. And understanding how a business goes through a cycle and how you do as a leader does too. And like I said at the top we created this podcast to really help people evaluate themselves, for leaders to take a look at themselves and understand their weaknesses and how they need to change. And I think as you read this book, you're going to see yourself you're going to understand if you'll take inventory of your life in your career, where you're at where your company is at, and can really take some things away from how you can better your life in your career and your company and the people around

Chip Valutis

Yeah.

Todd Tuthill

There it is.

Dylan Mitchell

Todd, I'm just grateful that you don't ask me for a book recommendation every episode because I don't, I can't do them all.

Todd Tuthill

Well, we could yeah, I guess we could but my second book recommendation and Chip comes from a guy named Joe Gibbs is Game Plan for Life, Your Personal Playbook for Success. I chose this book because I believe Joe Gibbs jumped the S-curve in a grander way than almost anyone else in the history of sports. He won three Super Bowls with three different quarterbacks as a coach for the Washington Redskins. Then he decided to leave football and start a NASCAR racing team so he could spend more time with his family.

At NASCAR, so far, he's won five NASCAR Cup Series championships with three different drivers. He's the only person in history to be inducted in both the NFL Hall of Fame and the NASCAR Hall of Fame. I met Joe Gibbs at his NASCAR.

I met Joe Gibbs at his NASCAR facility in Charlotte, North Carolina a few years ago and he gave me an autographed copy of his book. The book's a biography of his life, but it's not primarily about the successes. It's primarily about his failures and what he learned from them. Let me read you a section that's written on the inside cover of the book.

"There's no question that the game of life is the most important game we'll ever play. It's bigger than any Super Bowl or Cup championship. Fortunately, God has provided us with the ultimate game plan in the Bible. Now know what you're thinking. The Bible is too big to read or too hard to understand or too old to be relevant. Well, think again. My goal in writing this book is to show you just how practical and relevant the Bible really is. That's why I went out and recruited the best of the best to help me explain God's game plan and how it applies specifically to you. These are the guys I turn to when I have questions about God, the Bible, and what each has to say about life. I can't think of a better team to help you walk through the greatest playbook for success ever written."

He writes this book with 12 different people, all of his friends, all from different walks of life. And each chapter is just another section out of his life. He talks about things like managing your finances, finding your purpose in life, choosing your vocation, attaining peak physical and emotional health, sex, marriage and relationships, and overcoming sin and addiction. And all throughout the whole thing, he talks about the relevance of the Bible and how it affects each of those aspects of your life.

When I met Joe, it was a private tour for me and two other executives from Siemens. And when we met, he didn't want to talk about the NFL or about NASCAR. I was really pretty surprised. He walked up, he gave us a signed copy of his book, and all he wanted to do was talk about the content of this book. He wanted to make sure we got it. And he wanted all of us to learn from his mistakes.

So that's my recommendation for today, a biography of a man who jumped the S curve. Game Plan for Life, Your Personal Playbook for Success by Joe Gibbs. Look for a link in the show notes.

Dylan Mitchell

Chip, like I said, every guest gets this question. I was going to ask you anyway. but given that you're an author yourself, I'm especially curious, what's on your leadership bookshelf? Is there a book that you come back to or one that you find yourself recommending to other, other leaders?

Chip Valutis

I like the question too, because I do love to gather information. And Todd, very nice things. I appreciate your words about my book. And part of how I try to write my telegraphic to the books that I tried to write a more dense book. mean, honestly, my book isn't one where you can't put it down after every chapter. Sometimes you have to put it down and just let it assimilate and think about it for a little while.

I don't like the business books that give a catchy title about 25 pages of content and then another 145 pages to justify the price, That drives me nuts. So I tend to be drawn to authors, know, he's getting a little long in the tooth, but like Collins, Jim Collins, Malcolm Gladwell, I love the way he thinks. I look at Arthur Sheen, Humble Inquiry, that's a ⁓ classic one.

I look for those, I think I still have some academic in me. I kind of that. But for today, because you gave me a little heads up you were gonna ask this, the book that I would recommend to readers that really, for me, reflects the spirit of jumping the S and using the S curve to kind of guide your leadership efforts in your business is a classic book by Marshall Goldsmith. And it's called What Got You Here Won't Get You There.

And he doesn't go into the details of the different phases and the life cycle of movement and all the kind of stuff that I do, he's really introducing the core idea that a leader has to evolve, that the behaviors that got him or her to this particular point in their journey, organizationally or professionally, aren't the same behaviors that are gonna get you to the next place. And again, it parallels my kind of thinking recent work really, really well. says it he talks to leaders. It's just a really easy to read, kind of comfortable book, but it really gets at that building that self-awareness, building that humility, recognizing, know, Michael Jordan should have read it. Michael, what made you great is not going to make you a good owner of this basketball team, It really, I would put that on people's bookshelf. That's a good one.

Dylan Mitchell (55:11)

Hahaha. Michael, if you're listening, we're not trying to pick on you.

Chip Valutis

Yeah, but I'd love if he called me up and yelled at me. That'd be pretty cool.

Dylan Mitchell

Yeah, if you are listening, call any of us and let us have it.

Chip Valutis

That's right.

Todd Tuthill

You're welcome to join us on the podcast for a point counterpoint Michael if you'd like to that'd be fine

Chip Valutis

That's right. That's right. Well, it's interesting, Todd. if you watch that documentary, the last dance, I think it was called, I mean, and, and, mean, he's pretty harsh leader, right? He'd set a bar up here and you knew it when you didn't come close.

Todd Tuthill

And I have, I have. Yeah, absolutely. He did. No question. No question.

Dylan Mitchell

Well, Chip, thank you so much sharing that. And again, just like Todd's will put the link to that in the show notes with your book as well. Obviously, Todd, before we wrap up, any final thoughts you'd want to leave leaders with today?

Todd Tuthill

Just say in closing here, because it's been a dense podcast and a podcast with lots of media. I think that was one of Chip's goals. I just really want to thank Chip for taking the time. It's been wanting to do this with you. I've been looking forward to this for a while. you know, could get good to connect with you again, Chip. And let's stay in contact. Thank you for taking the time today to do this.

Chip Valutis

Absolute pleasure enjoyed it and it was great to kind of know reconnect with you and Dylan get a chance to meet you I love what you guys are doing Leadership is the easiest word to say and the hardest word to live and and it's so cool how you're breaking it down and Teaching it and bring in in really cool people to talk about it. So that's yeah, that could be. didn't. Yeah.

Todd Tuthill

And that was probably the show title right there. That's a good show title. There it is. I think that's it.

Dylan Mitchell

Hmm. That's it.

Dylan Mitchell

I'll just say this too as getting as I was getting ready for this episode I followed chip on LinkedIn and if our listeners are on LinkedIn I encourage you to follow chip He's got a lot of great things to say over there as well So definitely give him a follow there will link that in the show notes as well Chip I think you might have just said that it might be the episode title But I do want to give you the official last word have any final thoughts that you'd like to leave leaders are navigating growth right now?

Chip Valutis

Wow, gotta put a bow on I'm not gonna resort to my three favorite characteristics. gonna stretch myself. I'm gonna draw a parallel to parenting. For the leaders that are out there are parenting. And again, same theme. It is probably one of the most difficult jobs. It's probably one of the most rewarding jobs. And you can't, pardon my French, half ass it, engage, study, learn, deploy, practice, rinse, repeat, and it will pay you dividends forever. If you're not up for it, then go find a great job as an individual contributor, a quarterback, a fullback, a wide receiver, and enjoy yourself.

Dylan Mitchell

Thank you so much chip. I love that, especially as a new parent myself hits home. So before we wrap up, if you want to learn more about Doctor Chip Valutis and his work, you can find him at Valutis That's VALUTIS.com. book Talent Driven Growth, your blueprint for scalable organizational success is available now. You can also explore Valutis.com slash shop not traditional product catalog, things like that. It's more of a marketplace for diagnostic tools, coaching experiences and development programs designed to help organizations better understand their talent and drive real sustainable growth. So you won't find a ball cap in there. No koozies. I looked, but all of those links will be in the show notes as well. As always, thanks Todd and a big thank you to everyone listening.

Every episode of Rincon Horizons, we unpack the moments and decisions that shape us as leaders at work, at home and everywhere in between. Our goal is simple to help you lead better so your organization can climb higher. If today's conversation sparked something for you, share it with a friend or a colleague who's on their own leadership journey. You can find more about Rincon Aerospace or connect with Todd using the links in the show notes or at Rincon. That's R-I-N-C-O-N dot aero.

I'm Dylan Mitchell. can learn more about my work at dm.supply. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next time on Rincon Horizons.

Todd Tuthill http://www.rinconaero.com
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